Ferrari: Kimi or Felipe? Who do you keep?
June 30, 2009 by Negative Camber
Filed under Top Story
This story has been regurgitated a thousand times already but ours has a twist. Spanish paper Diario AS has announced that it believe September’s Grand Prix at Monza will the e the date that Ferrari announce their new driver Fernando Alonso. The deal is purportedly a five year contract that will also be accompanied by a new sponsor historically tied to Fernando Alonso in Santander.
Now this is perhaps F1’s best known secret, apart from Max’s spanktacular proclivities, but here is a bigger question for F1 fans; who exactly should Ferrari keep? If Fernando is going to the Scuderia next year, do they keep Felipe Massa who was one point away from the title last year and arguably the better driver or should you keep Kimi Raikkonen the former world champion? before arguing the merits of either Kimi or Felipe, keep in mind the Alonso clause. Fernando is not going to make another mistake like McLaren. He will insist on being number one at the team and unless Ferrari caught him in a weak moment where they did not have to concede that fact, he will not be very keen on having a teammate motivated to create problems for him and his mission. The mission? re-create the Schumacher era with the team firmly behind one driver who has the tools and talent to get it done. I believe both ingredients are present in a Ferrari/Alonso combination.
So given the Alonso clause and the performance of Kimi and Felipe? Who do you pick? Let the opinions begin.
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As much as I’d like to see Felipe be the one to be dismissed if this rumor is actually is true (which I personally don’t believe it is) I’d have to think Kimi will be the one to go. The way Felipe has asserted himself in the team as opposed to Kimi’s ice cream eating and vodka rigging would lead me to believe Kimi would be the one.
If that were the case then Felipe would have to go as he is, in your opinion, the better driver.
I too believe Kimi would be the one to go, but for a different reason, he’s a “real” #1 driver and would not be a good #2 to Fernando. I would personally love to see a Kimi/Fernando lineup at Ferrari, but it would not be a productive situation. Massa is a better #2, he had his chance at a fluke championship last year and blew it. I’m sorry but if wet weather driving is the true test of a driver’s ability, someone needs to stripe Massa of his superlicense. With Massa on the team, you have to write off any wet weather races and hope who ever his teamate is can bring the car home on podium. Massa is a #2 and is therefore a better choice to keep around IF Alonso has really signed on. Sorry, I think Massa is a nice guy and fast on a given quali lap, but he is not that great a driver.
First question — how many drivers on the grid today are better than Massa behind the wheel all things being equal? Vettel, maybe Alonso… and thats about it no? Massa has pulled the dog of a Ferrari around alot more successfully than his teammate and much better than Lewis has made his car this year.
I sincerely like Massa, hes a good guy, good for the sport, incredibly friendly and never blamed the team for costing him the championship last year or F’ing up a ton this season. I wish for him to remain with one of the top teams, but I wouldn’t want to see him decidedly playing second fiddle like he was forced to do in 2007, especially given his superior talent and honest-to-God desire to be doing it.
If they want the better driver, you take Massa. If you want a better comfort-zone for Alonso, you fire them both and he gets to bring Jr Jr with him.
…better hope it doesn’t rain. ;-)
so he spins out 5 times in one GP… the only go to England once a year! haha
guess you haven’t watched any wet races this year….
Any by the way, go back and re-watch last years races, Ferrari first and Massa second blew last years championship.
Massa over the past 3 years has developed into a driver who has class and talent… correction, he has always had class.
“maybe Alonso”
are you high?
even Massa’s old man would have a hard time defending his son’s skills when compared to Fred
Spoken like a true Fred fan. :)
Keep Massa, though it’s going to be interesting with Massa and a 2 time WC on a team…
I like Kimi, but he isn’t showing the drive that Massa has been the past few years.
John “Go Alonso go” Stone
That’s because of the Ben and Jerry’s Chunky Monkey ice cream Kimi has been packing away.
Kimi should go. His ICE mod doesn’t fit into Ferrari’s “Red Passion”. Imagine, Italy, Brazil and Spain together for the championship. That’s what I call “emotion driving”!
Massa is the man to stay… Kimi can never seem to get the car to perform above its abilities and should be the one to go. Massa ahows more passion and enthusiasm and will make a better partner for Alonso.
I agree with Beckett. Massa is a both great driver and a great team member. He deserves to not only remain at Ferrari but also allowed to battle for the championship, regardless of who his team mate is.
I’m not sure why SR is so quick to bash him because of one poor race. There was a battle the prior season between Massa and one of the BMW’s in the rain, and both Massa and BMW (was it Kubica?) were fighting wheel to wheel for about 1/2 a lap in heavy rain…it was very impressive driving by both with no spinning. And in his “fluke championship” run last year, he won more races than anybody else. 6 GP wins on the books, and the 7th was in his reach before a mechanical failure. Remember Lewis, both Ferrari’s, and Kubica were impressive last year, so it’s not like his competition was weak.
I do consider Alonso as the better driver, but I would love to see them battle each other in the same car just to make sure! ;)
Listen I like Massa, but his record in the rain stands for itself. He is not a “great” driver. History will tell us whether or not his run toward the championship was a fluke, I happen to think it was, but that is my opinion. I’m a Ferrari fan and was as disappointed as anyone when he lost last year. I’m not looking to “bash” him, I just think there are plenty of drivers out there better then him. A few decent scraps here and there in some races don’t change the fact that he gets out driven in races pretty consistantly by the upper echelon drivers.
Kimi to go for sure. The guy has no passion for what he does anymore. Massa will suck it up and do his job as a #2. Ferrari need Alonso. They have lost there way since Schumacher/Brawn/Burn/Todd left and need a central figure again. Other than eating ice-cream, Kimi looks like he is more interested in WRC these days anyway. Prediction: Alonso world champ 2010 in the prancing horse…
I think Felipe has done enough under rain to prove that his race at Silverstone/2008 was not a real evidence of his true ability under rain.
He won in Brazil under a mixed weather. He made a great race at Monaco last year and in China this year — including passing Kimi — and just the poor Ferrari rehability was able to stop him. He would go at least to get a podium in a dog of car under a heavy, heavy rain…
Even Lewis — the best driver in the wet IMHO — can’t stand with the rain in a poor car. His performance resembled Felipe´s at Silverstone in 2008.
I´m with Beckett on this one. Fernando is fantastic, the best driver right now, but Felipe is a fighter, a real fighter who is feared right now even by Fernando. Would be great to see those guys fighting in ‘equal terms’ at Ferrari.
That Silverstone race was not the only time he’s had a horrible showing in the ran. There have been a number of others. I’m willing to debate this or even be persuaded, but lets look at the record and be honest. No sense arguing it here…it will ran again and he’ll be in the car, we’ll see how he does… Once again I like him. I DO think he’s a good #2 for Alonso, because he’s not a #1 driver and he is dedicated and he is enthusiastic, etc…
I think you have to look at who will give more to the sponsors: I’m betting that Massa adverts in Brazil have much more effect than Kimi adverts in Finland.
That’s on the assumption that one of the current drivers stays. I have a way-out theory that is obviously not going to happen. If Ferarri want to sell more cars in the asian market and Alonso needs a number 2, it’s got to be Kaz going to Ferrari – tell me you wouldn’t enjoy that for the first two races before the novelty wears off.
Kaz is improving this year….would be a very compliant #2…not a bad idea….But it aint going to happen.
Fernando Alonso and Jacques Villeneuve… I hear Villy wants back in…now that would be entertaining…
You’ve got a great point there, SR. JV likes nothing more than a fight, and loves to beat his team-mate, so being told he’s #2 would be a great motivator to prove everyone wrong. Love to see it. I still think Jacques is a driver who needs a good car, and if Ferrari can produce one, I wouldn’t put success past him.
Kimi has not been motivated since the moment he became world champion, and one must feel he has achieved all he wants to in F1 – oh isn’t he starting a rally career, I bet Loeb is shaking in his boots!
I’d think a Fernando / Massa teaming could be dominant. Fernando is the best driver on the grid right now — better than Vettel because of his development abilities. [Check back in a year or three and that might be different.]
I think Massa’s drive is what makes him the pick above Kimi, although a motivated Kimi in a good car probably gets you better results. But he doesn’t GET you that good car and he doesn’t seem to stay motivated.
But, really — Kimi probably is as motivated at his job as any of us who are bashing him.
Massa’s handling of winning and then losing last year’s championship clicked him up several spots in my book. I think he’s a good guy, a good teammate and a good driver. And I think he’d get better being around Alonso.
Just throwing this out there, but didn’t Montezemolo last week suggest that maybe teams should be allowed to run three cars instead of two? Perhaps they want them all?
He did mate. That was also the impetus for the Rossi to Ferrari in third car story. good catch mate. ;)
Great Post as usual Neg.
This is an easy one to predict, Massa stays. Felipe remembers what it was like to race with Michael and it will be much the same with Fernando and that will cement him (Rubens-ish) with the team for a number of years more.
Since Kimi is probably going to spend his post F1 career rolling WRC cars I will say Alonso/Massa but if I could chose I would say Vettel/Rosberg
Honestly I can’t stand Alonso, he is a balshy, whinging, whiney little brat with no grace or charm. I really like Kimi & Massa, and hope that Ferrari sticks with them, but as a long time Kimi fan I have to admit he seems to have lost that edge that made him so good in years past, so he is obviously the one to retire if one is going to change drivers.
I still hope never to see Alonso win another race, his is the sulkiest bitch on the circuit since Montoya.
Beware the wrath of the Noddy when speaking of Fred
I was always very unimpressed with Alonso’s attitude at Mclaren, it always rubbed me the wrong way. I must say that seeing him over-drive the Renault has made me realize how fast he can drive on the edge (even if the car isn’t willing to be driven that close to the edge). He takes chances, he is aggressive … in many ways he is a better driver than Kimi.
Kimi would do great in WRC … a smooth steady drive will be rewarded in that series, whereas a driver that takes chances often gets caught out by his mistake. Man I miss WRC.
I completely agree on Alonso at McLaren. There didn’t seem to be the same fire and passion we had seen out of him in the previous years. I think his personality thrives having a strong and very vocal team leader like Flav. It lights a fire in him. For the tons of issues at McLaren in ‘07, I think it was just a bad fit. Ron & Co. just didnt mesh personalities with him well. It seemed they were too button-down, while hes the guy dancing on the nose of his car after winning. To be the guy that helped make Renault kings of the mountain and relevant, I really wish he would stay there and the car develop better just so they have some fighting chance.
Did I mention that I love the peeps who post at F1B. Here is an example of several people with diametrically opposite opinion on the subject all posting great points and respecting each other in the process. You guys are the best and that is what makes this site so terrific…all of you. Grace, Andy, Mark and I are all humbled. Thanks for being adults folks and thanks for making this a terrific thread to read. Good points.
Keep in mind the very real thought of Ferrari wanting Vettel there as well. That would be an issue. How about Heidfeld with Alonso? One of the best development guys out there. :) I still think Christian Klien is worth looking at as well and perhaps Adrian Sutil or Timo Glock. But the fact is I thin Massa has justified his job there.
I think both should go and Schumi should return, and i do mean that seriously – Massa has so many flaws when trying to drive on the edge and his rain performances are woeful, Kimi had his day and mentally is not there. At least schumi could give great technical feedback too and get the car on the right path with the backroom engineers even if he doesnt have that raw speed he once had, he would be a great asset to Alonso who does have – rain or shine!!!
I’ll have to say, that over the years Dario AS has reported all kind of stuff and most of it has been somewhat off the mark. FA will propably go to Ferrari, but 2011 not 2010. And Kimi will happily stand down and start enjoying his life. He has the brains to understand that real meaningfull things can be found outside F1. But he’s still committed, motivated and fast. If the car is good next year he will give it all and could easily win another championship 2010. So, Fernado era is in the cards, but I think Ferrari is doing a huge mistake. FA is a hasbeen. Glorios FI future should be sought elsewhere in the direction of the young and fast shotguns of the future. And hey, Vettel speaks some finnish, so he has my vote to be the next red baron. I hope he catches Button.
Kimi is finished as a top driver, i liked him but in the last two years he’s simply lost, except some good day.
I didn’t love Massa and i didn’t thought he was a great driver, but after last year i had to re-think my opinion. He deserved the championship and he lost it only for ferrari-teams default.
Kimi instead won his championship with big luck and Felipe big help.
For that reason no doubt ferrari has to retain Felipe.
I think Fernando is maybe the best driver, so i’m really curious to see how much he’s better than Felipe..
Ferrari probably will not offer a Shumy clause to Fernando, probably Fernando position is weak in this moment to ask something similar..
I think if Kimi want to continue he will finish (sadly) in Renault his career, as Berger and Alesi did.. or better he will compete in rally with Fiat support as he’s starting to do..
I respect your opionion, but I also have to disagree. Kimi is still a top driver with a poor car. And if you look at the second half of the 2007 season you have to admit that luck had nothing to do with it. Kimi won six races against Hamiltons and Massa’a four and he never gave up. The most wins, the deserving champ. Every champion must enjoy a certain degree of luck. All the title holders are lucky guys. They have been in the right car at the right moment. Kimi and Felipe are in the right car but at an unfortunately wrong moment. Come on, Kimi’ll never step into a Renault!! If he leaves FI he’ll vanish, not fade away.
My guess is that, assuming there is any truth in this, neither of them would stay on.
Probably a Alonso – Trulli combo would be enough, as i’m sure an italian in a Ferrari is always a welcome sight. Plus they were good teammates at Renault, they like each other and Trulli is not really a match for Alonso.
So i’m wondering whether a 2 year deal for Trulli, that would then leave to make place for Vettel, would not be the perfect arrangement for the Maranello guys.
Keep Kimi. Kimi is content just to be in F1 now. He’s experienced and talent and won’t push for unilateral support over Alonso.
I would add only in my opinion that Trulli won’t never be an option for Ferrari.
Ferrari politics in the last 30 years has always been against italian drivers, and that started with Bandini’s tragedy.. At the other side in Italy the pressure for an italian in a ferrari would be too high. That’s why after Capelli, they didn’t catch Fisico or Trulli when they were young and strong. At that time they also can put pressure on Shumi, more than Irvine or Barrichello.
Now the tifosi will support the italian driver against Alonso, and they cannot accept the role of second driver for him and that would be a problem nobody wants in the scuderia.
To Jere, of course that’s only my opinion, i still hope Kimi could come back to the driver i’ve seen some years ago, and sometimes i’m totally wrong: for example i was one of them who tought Jenson was finished, and now he we’ll be next world champion!
I disagree Nelson.
I think that the Tifosi are aware of what Alonso and Trulli mean in todays F1.
Most of all, they want Ferrari to win. They learned from the Shumi years that winning is all that matters, and they could embrace the fact that there would be an italian in the mix, with some chance to win, in the Ferrari, albeit a smaller chance then their man, Alonso.
Wow. This thread got a little interest, huh?
It looks like Ferrari has finally gotten around to denying this rumor, which probably just lends it credence.
My sense if that Vettel won’t quite be ready to carry a Ferrari team next year… unless he blossoms beyond even my expectations during the second half of this season. But even if he were to win a WDC or help Red Bull pull out the WCC, I’m not sure he’s got the experience yet to develop the car and help lead the team.
I think Massa’s shown he’s a leader; but is he much at development?
I think what Ferrari is finding out — perhaps especially because of the lack of testing — is that they need someone who can make the car better as quickly and efficiently as possible. And that’s Alonso. Surely there isn’t another driver (with the exception of Vettel) that you’d replace either Ferrari driver with? Nick or Nico would be great teammates, but can anyone imagine trading out Kimi for one of them?
All this talk has me wondering this: Which do you think would be the best combination of drivers next year — keeping in mind all the variables such as their ability to co-exist? [I.e. Alonso and Hamilton on paper might look GREAT, but we would assume it wouldn't work, even though Alonso has turned his ire more toward McLaren than toward Lewis.]
Yep. Ferrari says its all speculation. I am not presenting Diario AS as a paragon of truth but that is the story and they’re sticking to it. Makes for good conversation though.
Still, all the attention this post got, just shows how much people want to get into the racing side of F1, instead of all the politics.
If Freddy could come in an act as a team leader with Massa as an Equal there is no doubt that Ferrari would be dominant.
I think Alonso may join Ferrari in 2011 but not next year, for Ferrari, it may much easy to deal with about “contract” issue.
Kimi is a great driver, he just needs to be inspired. With a car like he has now where’s the desire to win when the car obviously cannot deliver regardless of the talent behind the wheel. Massa is also a great driver and the most important thing is that they make a good team. Who knows what Alonso would bring to the mix – does Ferrari really want a 2007 McLaren fiasco! Ferrari has a better chance of getting the constructors trophy if they stick with a good duo instead of potentially dangerous mix!
And how exactly does the team inspire him. Since he is “Boss’s Man” Ferrari has gone out of their way to accomodate the Fin’s Likes and Dislikes. Fin should go back to team that suits his style McLaren, where he is supposed to turn up twice in race weekend run qualifiers and race and leave the track once the race is over (for him). And all that car development and things will be taken care by Engineers, Control Freak Ron and Super computers at Woking. Woking likes their drivers in Kimi Mould, Passionate(And Vocal) drivers are not Woking Culture. Macca can give their current Fin a boot (which would be unjust to Heiki of course) and get back their “Original” Blue eyed boy
As Shelley points out, I believe Kimi is contracted through 2010. The original speculation was Alonso 2011. has AS got the story right but the date wrong? There could be a few who think cutting Kimi’s contract short and getting Fred for 2010 would be a good move as kimi hasn’t been the most motivated guy lately…not that you can be in a car that struggles.
Fisi looked pretty motivated during that double pass at Silverstone!!
Looking at 360 degree turns the much Hyped “Neo-reigen-meister” had in dry race at 2009 Silverstone. I would ask as Massa bashers to stop the “Can’t drive in rain” campaign. In that race his Team mate who was hyped as Great rain driver after 2004 SPA win spun thrice as well.
What all fans conveniently overlook is it was Ferrari’s weather systems that gave them false data and they had setup the cars for “Dry Race” and Dry race set in wet race was what made Massa looked stupid.
I don’t think he has fared badly otherwise. Where he stands above Kimi is, His capability to work with team when the going in not good. If things are not working well, Kimi Invariably always triggers ” Not Interested” anymore button , which was the trait even in his McLaren days where he was blue eyed boy of Ron Dennis. But that attitude goes well in team like McLaren that relies more on “Computer Data” than what “Human Drivers” give them ( hence JPM and FA) didn’t gel with Macca.
A technically proficient driver like FA and perfect team man Massa is what Ferrari needs at the moment. However we should remember Kimi was signed personally to by Luca D M while Massa is managed by his not so good friend’s Jean Todt’s Son. And Extending Massa’s contract was the last thing Jean had done in his last day at Ferrari. So though it would be really bad for Felipe, LDM will jettison Massa and Keep Kimi. And this “emotional decision” will mean If Indeed FA will Join Ferrari, Ferrari will again be stuck with One and half cars….
I won’t pretend to be an expert on Massa and I’m sure every driver has their share of incidents but Massa just seems to have more. We don’t even need to get into his Sauber days, if we start with his Ferrari career and take just he highlights, leaving out all the small nit-picky mistakes and off track excursions…
2006
-Massa spun out in Bahrain,
-Crashed out of the Australian race for an unneccessarily aggressive move
-Spun out in the wet in China.
2007
He had a decent year in ‘07, but continued to show that he could be pressured into mistakes and flustered easily. (He was out driven by Hamilton in Malaysia and ended up running off the track)
2008
-Spun off at the 1st corner and later ran into Coulthard while attempting an ill-advised pass in the 1st race of the season
-Spun out of the 2nd race (again).
-We all know about Silverstone
Even if you are an avid Massa fan you have to admit that he does not handle pressure well. He gets flustered and makes mistakes. I like the guy but IMO he’s a second tier driver.
This is a good example how fame fades away when you have a couple of bad seasons. Kimi seems for many to be a second rate driver these days. No ambition, no motivation, lazy, drinks too much, talks too little etc. I still think he’s one of the best, has always been. Last year the car did not suit his style of driving, this year it doesen’t suit anything. If Ferrari get thing’s right together with Kimi he will come back. Remember Suzuka 2005, race winner from 17th on the grid or something, passing Fisico from the outside on the last lap. This talent is hiding in the shadows of a slow car. And furthermore, he’s a decent car developer, too as Whitmarsh at McLaren has said. We have to give Ferrari and Kimi more time. They will come together.
It’s threads like these that have Todd feeling all warm inside. Good dialogue, folks.
A few thoughts to:
SR: I’ve been a bit of a “Massa can’t drive in the wet” critic, too, for the list of races you set forth.
But…
Williams4ever: The point about the car being set up wrong at Silverstone is a good one; at the least, it explains Massa’s most egregious race. Still, I don’t think he’d be anyone’s first choice for a wet race.
And…
Jere: I think the issue some of us have with Kimi is that he compares so poorly right now to Fernando for the reasons you mention: Fernando is in a “pig of a car” (to quote Negative Camber), but he’s hustling that car all over the track and trying to extract the most out of it. It seems like Kimi is still being Kimi, not adjusting to try to get the most out of the car. When the Ferrari’s set up is as right as it is going to get this year (Monaco), he can produce a result. But when it’s not, he doesn’t. I think the British GP showed that Massa is more motivated and working harder to extract what he can out of this car. And that has been true going back to mid-2008 when Kimi, as you suggest, didn’t have a car that suited him. WORK HARD ANYWAY! That’s what you’re paid the big bucks to do.
I think adding Vettel or Fernando would be a step up over either driver at Maranello right now. I just think that if you bring one of them in, Massa’s the better teammate to have. And I like Kimi, I’m a fan — because he can drive the pants off a car and because he’s got a bit of a personality.
I think it’s a bad sign if Ferrari think having Alonso i none of their cars will solve their problems, which are frankly due to the loss of all the major players in their 2000-2004 dominant period (Brawn/Byrne/Todt/Shu/Stepney). The team need to do some serious rebuilding to get anywhere close to where they were 4 years ago and I don’t think even Alonso can do that for them alone.
If we’re talking about 2009, then clearly The Scuderia should plump for a Massa/Alonso combination, but if they think that will restore their former glory, there’s some pain to be had, I fear.
If the rumours on Rossi are true (he was being interviewed at Laguna Seca over the weekend) maybe we could see him in a Ferrari with Alonso in 2011. In a competitive Ferrari watching the 2 of them go head to head would be awesome. Two guys that will never let up and push to the max. However, too good to be true I fear. Also discussed is a 3rd Ferrari on the grid….cost cutting??
PLEASE,KEEP MUSSA!!! I WOULD MISS HE’S DADDY HOLDING A CROSS ‘N PRAYING IN BOX,TALKING WITH HAMILTONS DADDY AND LICKING HIS.. HIS MOMM CRYING.. I WOULD MISS MUSSA SPINING IN RAIN.. I COULDN’T SURVIVE WITHOUT HIS SKILL ON TRACK (SPECIALY WHEN HE DRIVES TO DEFEND POS. :-)) HOW COULD WE LIVE WITHOUT HIS LOOK WHEN HE ENTER THE BOX AND HAVE THAT “PISSED ON CHIKEN” LOOK ON HIS FACE… KEEP THE MUSSA,KEEP THE SMILE ON OUR FACES!!! :-) GO MUSSA GO!!!!!